Exit Interview: Ursula Eagley interviews Trajal Harrell

Ursula Eagly: When did you first become involved with the [Movement Research Performance] Journal? When was that, and what was your first project?

TH Harrell: I can’t remember the year. but I was new to NYC, around 1998, and I was perplexed by the Release [Technique] phenomenon...no one could tell me what Release was...and I, having come from a very postmodern art education, thought everyone was doing Judson type work, so I was standing, sitting, etc...and everyone else was talking about Release...so I asked Catherine Levine [Director of Movement Research at the time] if I could do a Journal on Release...Sarah M[ichelson] was just beginning as Journal Editor, so she brought on DD Dorvillier and the three of us did two Journals on Release, which at the time was the only consolidated body of information on Release...I worked for a year on that with DD and Sarah and swore never to do it again!

UE: Never do “it,”  is that “it” the topic or the Journal itself?

TH: The Journal. It was so much work! It took over my life.

UE: ...But you came back and got even more involved...

TH: Well, I was pushed into it...

UE: Oh, I actually didn’t know that part of the story... What was the push? How long after that did you become Editor in Chief? And did you re-envision the format after you stepped into the role? Or was that something that was already underway?

TH: There was some meeting at Danspace [Project], and I was talking about how we needed more cultural visibility, and people said I should do the Journal...and so at the time...I was very involved with MR as Director of Special Projects and I had already convinced Carla [Peterson, Director of Movement Research] that the Journal should be a team effort, so I put together a team with Jill Sigman to work on a magazine format. Jill and I were co-editors of that first issue and Darrah Carr came on as well...and then after that first issue, with Jennifer Monson on the cover, the magazine format was there to stay. Jill didn’t want to continue.

UE: So the magazine format was prompted by this interest in greater visibility...what were the models that you looked to as you re-formatted?

TH: Well, yes, because it was clear to me that we had no such vehicle to promote and educate a broader creative class of people in NYC about contemporary dance, and we had artists whose careers deserved a kind of attention and visibility that, say, a magazine cover could give. I wanted to work with mainstream templates, so to speak. I wanted to find out what happens if we put our contemporary dance experimental work in those templates. Of course, it was risky and controversial...Models: Frakcija from Slovenia, Mouvement from France, Avalanche from the ‘70s Soho art era, and NYT Magazine...the [idea for] big face covers is directly appropriated from Avalanche.

UE: This was the “Cover Artist” template, which some readers will remember as a big change from the earlier format, which was based on themes. There would be an open call for content based on a theme...And looking back now, how has this magazine format influenced the field’s visibility?

TH: Yes, before I think the Journal was much more about artists’ writing...not so much anymore...that was also a big change by me. I wanted to focus on artists and their work, and I wanted to get the best writing I could for that. Not necessarily their own writing...I think it has done tremendously when people get it in their hands. The problem is the publishing and distribution.

UE: (Which continue to be challenges!)

TH: We still aren’t in all the places we need to be to maximize visibility. That is the second part of the equation and, unfortunately, I couldn’t tackle that and editing.

UE: Of course.

TH: But I will try to put some efforts toward that now that I am not Editor in Chief.

UE: In addition to the format, another thing that you’ve changed over the years is the geographic scope of the Journal...you included more interviews with European artists... and you distributed the Journal in Europe...which I believe had a lot to do with where you were doing your creative work.

TH: Yes, well, in terms of visibility internationally, it’s been strong. Well, we have also tried to do Asia, South America, and Africa but it’s harder because a lot of outreach is done on the piggyback of our personal work and travels.

UE: Could you talk a bit about that broadening?

TH: Well, I thought it was important that as a magazine we cover local, national, and international artists and their work...it was simple for me...we live with the internet…we aren’t isolated, and artists are traveling a lot these days, so the journal should reflect that. But of course it should grow from the NYC scene at the core of the journal. When I first came to NYC in late ‘90s, I wasn’t in conversation with peers from abroad, but I think more and more today, young artists and all artists are. I think the expectations have changed a lot in terms of how artists want their work to be mobilized, but that is a different discussion, perhaps.

UE: I’ve heard you say, “The Journal is a vehicle for artistic expression,” and I’m curious what that has meant for you over the years. That first issue you worked on, the Release issue, is a great example of how artistic inquiry led your editorial direction. Has your understanding of what the Journal is good at evolved over the years? What are the times at which you felt “this is the best version of what the Journal can be”?

TH: I don’t remember saying that...and I am not sure about that statement.

UE: I’ve heard it! ;)

TH: I think it should be a vehicle for artists, but the expression–I am not sure about it. A journal is not the same as a choreography. I think the journal is a tool to create a conversation and to educate and stimulate critical discourse and popular discussion but I don’t see it as the place where artistic expression happens. I think we can do a better job of nurturing writers and their work.

UE: About that function of the Journal, as a tool for inquiry, what is it best at?

TH: I think at this time in contemporary history...there are many tools and platforms for inquiry: workshops, performances, generative projects, etc. These are mainly for practitioners, but the ratio of these platforms to our platforms for public education and understanding of our practices is too large. We have to also work to put our ideas out in the world to a public that is not invested in our practice and the dance field.

UE: Mmm.

TH: There is a large class of creative individuals in the USA and they have very few platforms for learning about contemporary dance. They are interested, but you also need tools to understand the history, the artists, the processes, the aesthetics, the institutions, etc. The Journal, if given the right resources, could be terrific at building that bridge across the field.

UE: Is the hard-copy nature of the Journal necessary to this goal of visibility? (vs. an online publication)? I mention this because no funder is interested in supporting the Journal’s printing. But MR remains committed to the print

TH: I think so. Because when you are dealing with the creative class, objecthood and aesthetics is still very important...this class of individuals is used to the rarity of

an arts magazine. I think for sure it could one day be gone, the print version...but I think first you need to make the fetishized object a bit to get people really beholden, so to speak.

I think we have a problem, because the newsprint does not play well with the USA creative class. I think it would do better if it was in color and on nicer paper...whereas in Europe they like the grunginess of it.

UE: That is such an amusing detail–how charming the Euros find our low-budget format.

TH: Of course, because they don’t produce those kinds of things...so it carries a certain allure.

UE: Arte povera.

TH: Yes, exactly. But we actually need the Artforum of dance. We need that kind of cachet to solidify our place beside the other arts in terms of being an economically

viable choice for a broader public. It’s tricky. I know some people think we should stay underground. I just think we can have underground...and street level and high-rise–they aren’t mutually exclusive.

UE: So how many years now have you been working on the Journal? Why are you stepping away now? And what else are you working on at the moment?

TH: I don’t know really...in this latest incarnation...I would say maybe 6 years I think. Well, I am performing and touring quite a bit now with my choreography. I not only want to concentrate fully on performing, but I am away too much to have my ear to the ground. I think

NYC has to be the vital center of the Journal and I am not here enough to be on top of the pulse. I come in as much as possible but I used to see 3-4 shows a week, so I think someone has to be at the head, who is really on top of

that...and I think change is good. I also think I have done as much as I can do perhaps...and now I want to work on the same things from a different angle and without the deadline commitment that the journal requires. I will continue at MR and I will help you with the transition for a year.

UE: Interesting! Do you have a format for that [involvement with MR] in mind? That being the different angle.

TH: No, I want to lay fallow for awhile...but I am starting to think about the 25 years down the road.

UE: That is some long-term thinking...

TH: ...I still think we have lots of work to do in terms of gaining more public visibility in the USA. And I want to keep working on that both as an artist and as an arts activist, I guess, so to speak… well, I think to accomplish the kinds of leaps that we need to we have to think 10, 15,

20 year plans. It’s not going to happen in 2 or 5 years even. Right now I am working on my Twenty Looks or Paris is Burning at The Judson Church series. I am currently in residency in France working on the (L) which is Antigone Sr. (that is, Large). Soon I will probably make one more size to finish it off, and then XL, who knows.

UE: How big is the scope of this series? I heard you mention that you’re booked through some way-far-off-future date...

TH: Well, I have touring, yes, through March 2013, but it has been a huge life adjustment and difficulty. I did the Journal–

UE: Tell me more about the challenges/context you’re facing now...

TH: –and two jobs to support my dance. Then when opportunities started to present themselves in 2007, I had to quit the job because I wasn’t there enough, and so then, because the opportunities aren’t steady enough, you can’t pay your rent in NYC. So then you move back to your Mom’s and kinda live in residencies. So it’s been like that…and I think most people think yes, touring until 2013...

UE: That IS impressive.

TH: But I have difficulty with that perception because touring support doesn’t mean creation and production support. I have never had a harder time getting funding to make work, and I think that has something to do with the fact that people think I have a lot of money because I am touring. No, I am just now getting to the place that I can afford rent again, but not in NYC. So that is the next goal… anyway, I mention this because I think these myths need to be dispelled.

UE: Do you have a thought of where you want to make your home now?

TH: I would like to have an apartment in NYC, of course, but it’s difficult. Home is always a strange word for me...I mailed all my stuff to Georgia to my Mom’s, so I am subletting here and there…NYC, Europe, etc.

UE: Global nomad. As you step away from the Journal, are there things that you wanted to do there that you were unable to realize? It sounds like increased distribution is one of the major changes you’d like to see in the Journal in the future. Are there other changes you’d like to see?

TH: Distribution is the main one...I would also like to see us nurture longer critical and theoretical writing, but, again, this is a broader problem for the field, and we need more money. I also would love to see it be on better paper and in color. We could also better collaborate with our contributing editors. I think we have had to do a lot of streamlining with time and energy in order to deal with cuts in funding.

UE: You assembled a truly impressive team there... Moriah Evans, Buck Wanner...With the contributing editors, are you thinking more about communication, or systems, or what?

TH: And if we had more resources we could reach out more, but again, we are all juggling jobs and art, etc., so it is harder to do outreach. Well, I think you have to be in conversation with those writers and stay in dialogue and

nurture articles way in advance...this takes lots of time and organization. And when you have fewer resources you cut back. Sometimes it is more timely and cost-efficient to do it yourself rather than be in a meeting with someone else, or in a discussion...but we need the kinds of resources that will support those exchanges so we can keep a diversity

of voices and writing there. And of course it’s why we see more interviews...interviews are cheap to produce.

UE: And easier for overwhelmed contributing artists to execute.

TH: Developing longer form essays requires more time and money.

UE: There are just a few remaining things that I really wanted to ask you about...mostly about how you’ve confronted challenges over your tenure. What are some of the things you learned the hard way? And when have you had to tell writers “no”?

TH: I also wanted to say that there are artists that I wish I had had the chance to give in-depth coverage but didn’t get to...John Jasperse and Bebe Miller are two that come to mind. We get solicited quite a bit and, well, sometimes, it’s just not a fit, but we try to keep in dialogue and see if there can be a collaboration in the future. But, again, it’s the dialogue part that becomes challenging time-wise for the staff. I learned the hard way: keep your graphic designer happy.

UE: I’ll start sending him chocolates now.

TH: I think Troy Lambert has given so much to this publication. His aesthetic is there for sure...and he’s been there from the beginning of the magazine [format]. And, well, he’s terribly important. He’s really an unsung hero... and he does it for beans.

UE: How has his aesthetic shaped the Journal?

TH: Well, all of it...you see it...it’s been consistent... the logo...etc. It’s clean, modern, and if you were to see the color proofs you would cry–they are quite beautiful. I sometimes can’t look at the newsprint when it’s delivered. The color version has so much pop. If it was on the newsstand we would give Beyoncé a run for her money. I want to see the MRPJ on the newsstands. Why the fuck not? I want someone to convince me that we don’t belong there

UE: That takes some doing! When I worked on Arts International’s magazines we tried to get on newsstands... it’s sort of mob-run.

TH: Well, give it 10, 15, 20 years

UE: Yes, I want to see that, too.

TH: I think I just want to say that, yes, Barbara Bryan followed Carla Peterson’s lead and she and the board have done nothing less than give complete editorial freedom. It’s really amazing. I don’t know how many Editors in Chief can say that. I have of course recognized that as a privilege and not abused it.

UE: That’s been my perception as a reader, too. I never thought of the Journal as a vehicle for the organization’s programs. I think of it as relating to the core mission of MR, fostering experimentation in the field.

TH: I am happy that the magazine format will survive. I think everyone thinks it has pushed things along, so I feel totally happy to be leaving it in your capable hands. I don’t think it’s fair to ask you about your tenure…there will be lots of time for that.

UE: I am deeply honored by the role & responsibility. Truly.